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Cherries!

So it occurs to me that research is highly time consuming.

Take this venture for instance. I decided it do a costume piece making fun of my name "Marciano Dragonetti" for this upcoming (January 2009) 12th Night. I found the awesome dragonscale brocade with little red dots at the tip of each scale. My costume, is based of the dragon from the 1480- something painting of Saint George and the Dragon.

Brianna then said something evil to me. She said "Why not do embroidered cherries on the sleeves? I have a painting somewhere I can scan in and email to you that has embroidered cherries on the sleeve. It's on a woman's dress...."

Oh yah- like I care if it's on a dress. It's the pun of the century! Since picking the name, I have been affectionately called "Cherry Boy" by practically everyone. Marciano - Maraschino. Get it?

Not that I've done anything to dissuade it. Most of my early doublets, including my rapier doublet, has been some form of bright red... Yup, I'm a glutton for "Pun"ishment.

So, ok I've had only a little luck finding period embroidery patterns for cherries. And I haven't found any painting of cherries on clothing yet...

Then I thought, if I'm going to find cherries in period, I'm going to find cherries in Heraldry. Once I find cherries there, I'll be able to devise a pattern from that and BATTABOOM! My sleeves will be fabulous and the pun will leave people begging for mercy! MUUUWUWUWUHAHAHAHAHA!

So, a quick search resulted in this:

From http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/Jpglossc.htm

BANG! YEAH BABY! I got names! And where there are names, there are heraldic devices. And where this is heraldry, there is those cheesy shops that sell your family history and crest, printed on nice paper and suitable for framing!

Well, ok I celebrated a little to early. Yes, they had the families. And yes, they had the crests, but no- it didn't match the blazons above. Shucks. Well, ok- Google has been good to me so far, so lets hit the picture section.

Bam! Wikimedia! http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cherries_in_heraldry

Dead ends everywhere. Sigh.

Lot's of pictures, but modern renditions- nothing I would consider anything near an accurate recreation or even decent adaptation. But then again, I haven't seen a period representation of what I'm looking for, so I really have nothing to set as a basis for my opinion. It could be wrong. Then again, it could be right. If I can't say anything more than that about the source, then it's not a reliable basis for research.

From a source that looks suspiciously SCAdian...

http://www.morsulus.org/cgi-data/wiki.pl?FeaturesAndCategories

AmC?: In the OandA? index, there's this entry:

Fruit - Cherry - see Fruit - Other

This should probably be changed to "Fruit - Cherry - see Fruit - Apple" per this precedent from 10/2005:

Cécille Cerise of Cherybeare. Device. Or, a cherry double slipped, each slip leaved proper.

This is returned for conflict with the badge of Da'ud ibn Auda, (Fieldless) An apple gules slipped and leaved proper. There is one CD for fieldlessness, but no more.

The cherry does appear to be a period heraldic charge: Parker, p.104, cites the example of Cheriton, Bishop of Bangor 1436-37: ... on a chevron between three martlets ... as many cherries stalked; in chief three annulets... (The ellipses are because we don't know tinctures; presumably this is a stone carving or other tinctureless rendition.) The only reason we know they're cherries is from the cant.

On the other hand, Fox-Davies (Complete Guide to Heraldry, p.209) says that "Papworth mentions in the arms of Messarney an instance of cherries. Elsewhere, however, the charges on the shield of this family are termed apples." This is confirmed by looking in Papworth, p.428, at the arms of Messarney: Or, a chevron per pale gules and vert between three (apples) cherries of the second slipped as the third. The two different blazons, apples vs. cherries, are found in different editions of Glover's Ordinary. It would appear that even period heralds had difficulty telling the two charges apart. As the charges were not distinct in period, we grant no difference between an apple and a cherry, and this conflicts with Da'ud's badge as cited above.

Now, what this does for me is give me a couple literary references. I don't know what "Parker" is, but the reference to "Complete Guide to Heraldry" is unmistakable And look! Park talks about my Bishop friend! Oh and wait, "Cheriton"- could that be a standard English contraction of "Cherry Town"?.

So, finally a bit of a break! Wait- Fox-Davies is talking about Cherries being termed as Apples in heraldic charges? That'll complicate things...

Still on my way! Nothing holding me back yet! Wait, still no actual images...Damn.

Ok, so I joined a news group through google called "rec.heraldry" and posted the question (NOT using anything that would identify me as SCA. Why? Any serious attempt at research deserves a real name and a real email address. Sometimes the Dream can sabotage a serious attempt at reality. It's sad, but I've encountered it more and more. Something about titles not being meaning the same thing outside of the SCA as they do inside. Can't imagine why introducing myself as "The Honorable Lord Marciano" to a bunch of anthropologists would lead them to believe I wasn't taking this inquiry seriously....). The response I've received has not been stellar, but at least it opens another venue to search from:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.heraldry?hl=en

---Begin Quote---

I know they're not Elizabethan, but have you seen these?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cherries_in_heraldry

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cherry_trees_in_heraldry

Richard L
 

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Oct 23 2008 5:12 am
From: Turenne 


A family, variously spelt Estwere, Estwrey, Estewer, Estower or Esture
may or may not have incorporated a cherry tree on their arms.

Also the arms of Messarney were 'Or, a chevron per pale gules and vert
between three cherries slipped of the third'.

Richard L


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Oct 23 2008 10:19 am
From: Pete Barrett 


On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 05:12:07 -0700, Turenne wrote:

> Also the arms of Messarney were 'Or, a chevron per pale gules and vert
> between three cherries slipped of the third'.

Green cherries?

--
Pete Barrett

They are very young cherries!!

Richard
 

---End Quote---
 

Now, there have been multiple posts from someone advertising a teen bondage site, which then begs the question: Are "ball gags" a heraldic charge? A lozenge gules per bend sable or some such?

Wait! here's something interesting.....

http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/MARNEY.htm

Wait for it! Oooh....

This is the arms of the Marney family...

 

John MARNEY Father: William MARNEY (Sir Knight) Mother: ¿? Married: Avice GERNON Children: 1. William MARNEY (Sir Knight)

William MARNEY (Sir Knight) Father: John MARNEY Mother: Avice GERNON Married: Catherine VENABLES Children: 1. Robert MARNEY (Sir Knight)

Robert MARNEY (Sir Knight) Died: AFT 25 Sep 1394 Father: William MARNEY (Sir Knight) Mother: Catherine VENABLES Married: Alice LAYER Children: 1. William MARNEY (Sheriff of Essex)

Robert Marney, son of William Marney, Sir Knight died on my birthday in 1394, and this is the family crest? Oh hell yes! Now we're getting somewhere!

Ok, this guys link page is awesome! Tudor and Elizabethan up the wazoo! http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Documents/Links.htm

So I have an email into Jorge- who owns the website. I love the WWW! How else could I find a guy in Argentina who is interested in my time periods and who communicates in better English than most Americans. Seriously- you gotta love the 'Net! May it reign freely forever! Viva la Internet Gratis!

Anyways, I'm trying to locate his source for the image. Once I've validated the source, then my research- for at least what I am using it for- is pretty much completed. Something tells me though I am going to be researching this for quite some time to follow!

Oh My Gods....

So, well, I found the entire book "Complete Guide to Heraldry" By Aurthor Charles Fox-Davies as a PDF and free to download. Why? Because there is no copyright on it. It was written in 1909 and I guess no publisher found enough value in it to keep it from the general public. Huzzah for under valuation!  So know I'm in process of downloading all 106 mb of it.

Want it? http://www.archive.org/details/completeguidetoh00foxdrich

Ok- so in that whole 700+ page book there is less about heraldic cherries then what's on this website. Feh! Not even a damn picture of a heraldic cherry!

"Papworth mentions in the arms of Messarney an instance of cherries [" Or, a chevron per pale gules and vert between three cherries of the second slipped of the third "]. Elsewhere, however, the charges on the shield of this family are termed apples."

That's it. Nothing more.

(Sniggering wife says: Inverted cherry charged as "sucker")

Ha ha.

Friggin' book. FEH!

11/07/08

Yah, well- the search hasn't been going so hot. Feh.  Searching for the Marney family has returned up relatively little and he gentle I contacted never returned my email.

So the searching continues in a slightly different fashion.... Thanks to the kind folks at the Bridgeman Art Library http://www.bridgeman.co.uk for making my search a little easier!

	Image ID LCF 223145 Title Thomas Smyth (d.1642) (oil on panel) Additional Info son of Sir Hugh Smyth; rebuilt Long Ashton Somerset, reputedly to the design of Inigo Jones; Artist English School, (17th century) Location © Trustees of Leeds Castle Foundation, Maidstone, Kent, UK Medium oil on panel Dimensions 106.7x86.3 cm High Res Image Size 50 MB (as TIFF-file) 3.14 MB (as downloadable JPG-file) Century C17th Nationality English Classification CHILDREN'S PORTRAITS: 17TH CENTURY
	Image ID BL 70964 Title Add 42130 f.196v Child up a tree picking fruit, begun prior to 1340 for Sir Geoffrey Luttrell (1276-1345), Latin (vellum) Location British Library, London, UK Medium vellum High Res Image Size 56 MB (as TIFF-file) 4.94 MB (as downloadable JPG-file) Century C14th Classification MANUSCRIPTS: DAILY LIFE Permissions PERMISSION REQUIRED FOR NON EDITORIAL USAGE
	Image ID PWI 82815 Title Virgin and Child (panel) Artist Berruguete, Alonso (1488-1561) (attr. to) Location Private Collection Medium oil on panel Century C16th Nationality Spanish Classification MADONNA & CHILD
	Image ID PFA 89143 Title T33337 Portrait of a mother with her eight children, 1565 (panel) 8914465 Artist Seisenegger, Jakob (1505-67) (circle of) Location Phillips, The International Fine Art Auctioneers, UK Medium oil on panel Dimensions 72.4x84.5 cm High Res Image Size 51 MB (as TIFF-file) 4.34 MB (as downloadable JPG-file) Century C16th Nationality Austrian Classification MOTHERS/FATHERS & CHILDREN
	Image ID RAF 63529 Title Portrait of a small boy aged two and a half, 1624 Artist Geest, Wybrand Simonsz. de (1592-1660) Location Private Collection Century C17th Nationality Dutch Classification CHILDREN'S PORTRAITS: 17TH CENTURY
	Image ID HST 129537 Title Madonna and Child with St. Jerome, St. Bernardino and Six Angels, c.1460s (tempera and gold leaf on panel) Additional Info fruit of paradise in the hand of the infant Christ; Artist Pietro, Sano di, also Ansano di Pietro di Mencio (1406-81) Location Museum of Fine Arts, Houston, Texas, USA Medium tempera and gold leaf on panel Dimensions 59.7x40.6 cm Century C15th Nationality Italian Classification MADONNA & CHILD Permissions PERMISSION REQUIRED FOR NON EDITORIAL USAGE
	Image ID ALI 155984 Title Nova 2644 fol.12r Picking Cherries, from the Tacuinum Sanitatis Codex Vindobonensis (vellum) Artist Italian School, (14th century) Location Osterreichische Nationalbibliothek, Vienna, Austria Medium vellum High Res Image Size 50 MB (as TIFF-file) 5.72 MB (as downloadable JPG-file) Century C14th Nationality Italian Classification MANUSCRIPTS: DAILY LIFE
	Image ID XIR 156203 Title Virgin and Child (oil on panel) Artist Crivelli, Carlo (c.1430/35-1495) Location Galleria dell' Accademia Carrara, Bergamo, Italy Medium oil on panel Century C15th Nationality Italian Classification MADONNA & CHILD
	Image ID NUL 167104 Title Virgin and Child, c.1485 (tempera on panel) Artist Crivelli, Carlo (c.1430/35-1495) Location National Gallery of Art, Washington DC, USA Medium tempera on panel Dimensions 39.4x30.5 cm cm Century C15th Nationality Italian Classification MADONNA & CHILD
	Image ID XJL 212092 Title Ms Fr. Fv VI #1 fol.162r Hazelnut Bush (left) and Cherry tree (centre), Illustration from the 'Book of Simple Medicines' by Mattheaus Platearius (d.c.1161) c.1470 (vellum) Additional Info Medieval manuscript possibly made for Louise of Savoy, wife of Charles of Angouleme; Artist Testard, Robinet (fl.1470-1523) Location National Library, St. Petersburg, Russia Medium vellum Dimensions 26x35.5 cm High Res Image Size 37 MB (as TIFF-file) 3.05 MB (as downloadable JPG-file) Century C15th Nationality French
	Image ID CND 223244 Title Ms 856/562 fol.68r Dido, Queen of Carthage, from 'Le Livre des Cleres et Nobles Femmes' by Giovanni Boccaccio (1313-75) (vellum) Artist French School, (15th century) Location Musee Conde, Chantilly, France Medium vellum Century C15th Nationality French Classification MANUSCRIPTS: DAILY LIFE Permissions PERMISSION REQUIRED FOR NON EDITORIAL USAGE
	Image ID KSL 247450 Title Detail of Still Life with Fruit, Vegetables and a Market Woman, 1564 (oil on panel) (see 247452 and 247451) Additional Info Obst- und Gemuesestilleben mit Marktfrau (Ausschnitt); Artist Beuckelaer or Bueckelaer, Joachim (c.1530-73) Location Gemaeldegalerie Alte Meister, Kassel, Germany Medium oil on panel Dimensions 114.8x170.5 cm High Res Image Size 66 MB (as TIFF-file) 6.32 MB (as downloadable JPG-file) Century C16th Nationality Netherlandish Classification STILL LIVES OF OBJECTS, FRUIT, VEG, PRE-19THC Permissions PERMISSION REQUIRED FOR NON EDITORIAL USAGE Restrictions MANIPULATION OF THE IMAGE FORBIDDEN
	Image ID BL 254438 Title Royal 2 B.VII f.166v Four men playing at bob-cherry, from the 'Queen Mary Psalter', c.1310-20 (vellum) Additional Info Bas-de-page scene; Artist English School, (14th century) Location British Library, London, UK Medium vellum High Res Image Size 30 MB (as TIFF-file) 0.87 MB (as downloadable JPG-file) Century C14th Nationality English Classification MANUSCRIPTS, CONTRACTS & DOCUMENTS Permissions PERMISSION REQUIRED FOR NON EDITORIAL USAGE
	Image ID SC 14671 Title Cherry: Prunus cerasus, c.1568, by J.le Moyne de Morgues (c.1530-88) Location Victoria & Albert Museum, London, UK
	Image ID SC 14672 Title Cherry: Prunus cerasus, by J.le Moyne de Morgues (c.1530-88) Location Victoria & Albert Museum, London, UK Classification BOTANICAL: FRUIT, VEG., PLANTS & TREES
	Image ID XAV 28087 Title The Vegetable Seller (oil on canvas) Artist Beuckelaer or Bueckelaer, Joachim (c.1530-73) Location Musee des Beaux-Arts, Valenciennes, France Medium oil on canvas High Res Image Size 55 MB (as TIFF-file) 3.68 MB (as downloadable JPG-file) Century C16th Nationality Netherlandish Classification FOOD & DRINK UP TO 16TH CENTURY
	Image ID BL 30936 Title Sloane 4016 f.30 Picking Cherries for Medicinal Purposes, from the 'Compendium of Medicinal Plants, (late 14th century) (vellum) Location British Library, London, UK Medium vellum Dimensions 36.5x26 cm Century C14th Classification MEDICAL SCENES, HARDSHIP & POVERTY Permissions PERMISSION REQUIRED FOR NON EDITORIAL USAGE
	Image ID PHD 31303 Title Cherry Tree: from "De Stirpium Historia", 15th century Location Lindley Library, RHS, London, UK
	Image ID MOU 36001 Title A Child of the Capel Family Artist Lely, Sir Peter (1618-80) Location Private Collection Century C17th Nationality English Classification CHILDREN'S PORTRAITS: 17TH CENTURY
	Image ID BAL 39605 Title Portrait of a Lady with her Four Children Artist Merck, Jacob Fransz van der (c.1610-64) Location Johnny van Haeften Gallery, London, UK Century C17th Nationality Dutch Classification MOTHERS/FATHERS & CHILDREN
	Image ID MOU 53722 Title Portrait of a Family Group, c.1630 Artist Vos, Cornelis de (1585-1651) (attr. to) Location Private Collection Medium oil on canvas High Res Image Size 59 MB (as TIFF-file) 3.84 MB (as downloadable JPG-file) Century C17th Nationality Flemish Classification CONVERSATION PIECES, FAMILY & GROUP PORTRAITS

Ok- I have successfully proved my case that Cherries are period! And from the manuscripts I can probably pull a cherry pattern for embroidery and blackwork/redwork, but until I find an actual example, my research isn't done...

By the way- the Art Library has some killer Japanese prints available!

11/17/08

Aha! Another bit of interesting information! From the Heraldry Society:

"Dear Josh,

The use of cherries as a charge in armory is extremely rare.  In the list of names you give there are two cases where there are no cherries, but rather cherry-trees. As regards one of them (Thornton) many Thornton arms incorporate hawthorn trees, and the use of the cherry tree was no doubt intended as a difference. The "Messamey" to whom you refer may be Messarmey, whose arms in fact included red apples, not cherries, or possibly Messewy who was the Attorney General of Jersey in 1685. He is recorded as having three cherries in his arms, but someone else with the same name again had red applies, not cherries.

One would expect people with the name Cherry to have canting arms incorporating cherries, but it is not so. They seem to have preferred annulets. The fifteenth century Bishop of Bangor to whom you refer (Cheriton, 1436-47) did use them as a canting device, however: On a chevron between three martlets as many cherries stalked, on a chief three annulets. Since no colours are specified I suspect that this has been read from a tomb or gravestone somewhere [Bedford, Blazon of Episcopacy].

Sergeaux of Cornwall is an interesting case. It seems [Pascoe, A Cornish Armory] that one Sergeaux line has Argent a saltire Sable between four trefoils Gules slipped Vert. Another. however, derives from Serischall or Seriscaux, both of whom adopted the cherry as a canting reference, with the saltire between either four or twelve cherries instead of the trefoils.

I know of no other cases, and I do not know of any good illustrations to help you..

Kind regards,

Melvyn Jeremiah
Hon.Secretary
The Heraldry Society"

Well, I think I did mention that I used my modern name and modern email address. What? Do I not look like a Josh? How about Joshua? There are other 4 and 6 letter words and derivatives that people use when either addressing me or speaking of me, but such terms of endearment probably should not listed here...

Anyways, cherries confused with apples, eh? And what in the world is are "Canting Arms?" Good Question. According to Heraldica.org  ( http://www.heraldica.org/topics/canting.htm ) :

"Those are coats of arms whose blazon, or verbal description in the language of heraldry, recalls the name (or, less often, some attribute or function) of the holder of the arms.

Canting arms (armes parlantes in French) are extremely common. The medieval mind was quite fond of puns, but at a more basic level, arms were a form of visual identification in a world of limited literacy, and it was perfectly natural for someone to use as his emblem a device which recalled his name."

Now, I am a fan of good puns and a big fan of bad ones (anybody catch my goldfish joke at Calafian Ann and Investure at the feast?) and there are some wonderful puns in this article:

• Harthill: Argent on a mount in base vert a hart lodged gules
• Henneberg (Saxony): Or on a mount vert a hen sable
• Quatremayne (Oxfordshire): Gules a fess between four dexter hands couped argent (quatre mains = four hands in French)

or

• The French family of Santeuil bears Azure a head of Argus or. Argus, a figure of Greek mythology, was a monster whose head had a hundred eyes, in French: cent = hundred, oeil = eye.
• the English family of Maltravers bears Sable fretty or. The fretty here represents an obstacle "difficult to pass" ("mal traversé" in French).

and even

• Barry (Ireland): Barry of six argent and gules
• Molyneux (England): Azure a cross moline or
• Palvert: pally vair and ermine

So where does that lead on the search for cherries... Well, I've proven they did exist in a recognizable form in paintings and manuscripts of the time period, but not definitively in heraldry. Since when is heraldry subjective? Since it was designed to be recognized by the illiterate masses, that's when.

Questions I need to answer in the future are:

What other fruits and charges (other than apples, that is) could cherries be confused with?

Why were they confused? Was it simply that they just looked alike at 30 feet or something else? (socio-economic, maybe? That is, were apples plentiful, but cherries reserved for the rich and noble?)

What importance did cherries play in paintings? Why did I find so many paintings with the Virgin and Holy Child with Cherries? In fact, why did I find a vast majority of paintings that contained cherries also contain children? What was the connection between children and cherries? What did cherries symbolize?

And to think- all I wanted to do was to find a period embroidery pattern for cherries....